Hope in hard places E1 - Hana from Palestine
In this episode, Embrace’s Revd Su McClellan speaks with Hana Zoughbi Kirreh from Palestine. Hana is a social activist, researcher and mother of two young boys. She lives in East Jerusalem.
Above: Hana Zoughbi Kirreh
Drawing on the ancient story of Job in the Old Testament, Su and Hana discuss the present-day suffering of the Palestinian people.
Hana shares her perspectives on reconciliation, advocating for women’s rights and international solidarity with Palestinian Christians. She also explains why she refuses to give up hope – even though the wider political landscape seems bleak.
Listen to the episode:
Read the episode transcript:
Su: Well, hello. My name is the Reverend Su McClellan from Embrace the Middle East, and I am absolutely delighted to be joined by Hana Zoughbi Kirreh from Palestine. We're actually recording this on the 5th of February, the day after President Trump announced that he would like the US to take over Gaza. And as we have been reflecting on the book of Job, that verse in chapter 19, where Job says, ‘How long will you torment me and break me in pieces with words?’. Hana, how do you respond to what President Trump has said? And particularly from your perspective as a Palestinian Christian?
Hana: Thank you, Su, for inviting me today for the podcast. I'm so happy to be here with you. It is so painful for me, really, to have this kind of decision. I would like to see the American government look into the suffering of the Palestinian people and really give them more support in achieving their dream of freedom and establishing their own state, having dignity and human rights. As I was going through Job's story in the Old Testament, I think the suffering that Job has been through was a lot. And this reminds me of the Palestinian suffering as well. I would like to see a different attitude towards our people. After all this suffering, we have been suffering – blockade, checkpoints, access to the holy churches. You know, movement is very difficult for us, for everyone in the West Bank, and I would like to say that we are all caught in a very unjust social political situation. As a Christian, I always look to Jesus’ suffering and resurrection for a sense of hope. And I also think that lament is part of the Palestinian Christian history. For example, if we look at Psalms 22 and 13, these two Psalms, it puts the cry for justice and peace and end of suffering. And this is what we are really looking up to God to really have this suffering and enduring of suffering into end. We would like to restore our lives, our soul. We would like to see a different future for us as Palestinians in general – Muslims, Christians, and as well as Jewish people also. We would like to see a better life for our new generation, for youth.
Su: I think that is a really powerful testimony, Hana, that bears witness to the situation that you are living through at this present time. And I was struck by the fact that you quoted from Psalm 22: My God, why have you forsaken me? But of course, a little bit later on in that psalm, it talks about the hope: Yes, it was you who took me from the womb and you kept me safe on my mother's breast. There is that sense of hope. So in a few moments, I'd like to talk more about that, but I think it would be really good for our listeners to know a little bit about you and what it is that you do, so would you like to tell us, please?
Hana: Yeah, first of all, I'm a Christian Palestinian living in East Jerusalem. I am married with two young sons, and at the very beginning of my career, after I graduated from university, I started to teach at different schools in East Jerusalem. Later, I worked with different local and international NGOs. Lately, like, 2 years ago, I started to work as a freelance consultant where I conduct research and analysis on youth, women, and other related topics and fields. I also conduct monitoring and evaluation for projects. But at the same time, I'm an activist. I'm passionate about my family, my faith, and making social difference. And I believe in also having social justice as well.
Su: That's absolutely amazing. And I know that you have done courses with the International Fellowship of Reconciliation. I'd just be really interested to understand how you would see reconciliation as being possible post this current war? How do you think people can begin to heal the wounds of what has been the most appalling and atrocious conflict?
Hana: Yes, I think reconciliation is something very important, but reconciliation doesn't just come from nowhere. There should be of course the end of occupation. If there is an opportunity to sit together and have this kind of mutual understanding – this is very important to have with everyone, including interfaith dialogue and coexistence. But at the same time, I would like to see that international laws are implemented. It's not enough to actually have international laws. It is important to implement these international laws. I think that there is a very big responsibility of the international community also to help us as Palestinians in general and as Christians to fulfil the reconciliation dream where we all can live together in harmony and in freedom, in dignity, and in social justice.
Su: So, I think what I'm hearing, you are talking very much about the relationship that exists between justice and reconciliation. That reconciliation isn't really possible until there is justice. Have I understood you right?
Hana: Yes, you're right, Su. Reconciliation by itself doesn't mean anything if there is no justice. I can reconcile with anyone who hurt me, who caused suffering, who caused many horrible things to me, to my family, to my friends. And we go on. Justice is very important. And even peace with no justice is not possible as well.
Su: Yes, it's that often well-used phrase, isn't there, that there's a big difference between the absence of violence and of peace, because peace actually only comes with justice. I know that over 10 years ago now, you contributed to a book called A Force Such As The World Has Never Known, Women Creating Change. And you wrote a chapter about advocating for women's rights in Palestine. Could you tell us about your work amongst women and also about the change that women can be in terms of conflict resolution and reconciliation?
Hana: Okay. Yes, of course. I think that advocating women's rights is very important. Women are half of the Palestinian society and without women, no reconciliation, no peace, and no justice. Women in our society are still underrepresented, unfortunately, in formal political structures and leadership roles. Though, still women play a very crucial role in resistance movements and building the future of our society. There are women who are in the local and international diplomacy, and they fight for human rights, for social justice, and the end of occupation. And this is what I really always think that is very important. For myself, I always like to be on the side of the marginalised, those who are oppressed. Those who are suffering. That's why I see myself in that field of supporting women. And I always like to see more women coming into and playing that crucial part of leadership and creating change in society. Of course, women face challenges from the patriarchal society and the political as well, which is very difficult for us as women. Sometimes we are not welcomed being an activist in our community, especially if we have a loud voice, if we try to make our voice heard because we want to have more rights.
Su: Absolutely. It's so very important for women's voices to be heard. What contribution do you think that Palestinian women, very specifically, can play in the future of any kind of just peace settlement?
Hana: Of course, women can play a very important and crucial part. As we say, charity begins at home. So when women try to plant the seeds of harmony, of love, within their own family at the very beginning, and then spread this into the community, as a woman, a Palestinian woman, suffering from different challenges and difficulties because of occupation, this is a very important thing for women, as well as when they reach into the leadership role, and we need more of those women who can represent our Palestinian society. Without these women, we can't reach reconciliation and justice. Women are a very important component, if I can say, into the leadership role – the reach of reconciliation and harmony. And this will lead to peace. We need a lasting peace. We are looking forward to a lasting peace, where we can really have a better future.
Su: I think we would all absolutely want to say ‘amen’ to that, Hannah. For us, as people living here in the UK and members of UK churches, what can we do to support you and the Palestinian Christian community?
Hana: Yes, I think the role of the Christians all over the world is very important in supporting people and especially Christians. As I have mentioned, Christians have been facing lots of challenges, lots of hardship in all means of life. We would like to see churches in the UK and all over the world sending support to Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land, by reaching the international community and making the international community have more pressure over decision makers. I think that also solidarity visits to the land and listening to the real people, the soul of the land. It's very important to extend aid to Christians, financial aid and other kinds of support for people here, because without this, Palestine will be only a museum. There will be no Christians left. You know, the number of Christians is dwindling, is becoming less and less every year.
Su: I was just going to agree with you. As you say, talk to the people who actually live there. And particularly the Christian community, because as you say, people are leaving at a really alarming rate. And I think it's worth saying that in the Middle East and particularly in Palestinian communities, these are some of the oldest Christian communities in the world. And if there are no Christians left in the land where our Saviour actually walked, that would be a tragedy that is almost unthinkable, but it's coming very close to being a reality. So, Hana, thank you very much for raising that. Given all that you have said, given the terrible situation on the ground at the moment, where do you find hope?
Hana: First of all, I would like to say that hope to me is a positive expectation about the future. And this motivates me and guides my actions and contribution to the wellbeing of myself and my community as well. Hope is a very important human need. Every human needs hope. As a Christian, first of all, my hope is focused on the Bible, my faith and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, a new beginning. Like to have a new beginning of a bright future, of something new, of an end to suffering and oppression. I think that with Trump being now in the White House, and having the right-wing government in Israel, I would say that my hope is starting to diminish. I would like to see that people who are in decision making are really taking into consideration human rights, taking into consideration that people deserve to live a better life. Trump should be having more pressure over the Israeli government in order to fulfil the agreements they have signed, and to bring prosperity and reconciliation and freedom and liberation to the Palestinian people. We would like to see also the US taking a more active role in the solution to the Palestinian people and of course other international diplomats, other international organisations and it's really very difficult to continue, but I still have this hope of a better future. This hope of God to really deliver us as he did to Job. He restored Job's life. He restored everything to him, and he brought a very different and good, a better life for Job. And I hope that looking up to our God, to our Saviour, to Jesus Christ, that this day will not be so far from us and there will be liberation. That there will be human rights that are really implemented into the Palestinian life. And also to everyone, we are looking for mutual understanding and coexistence where everyone has the right to exist, the right to live in peace, in security. This is what we really would like. So hope should be alive all the time, and we should be looking up into a new future, a bright future, but we need decision makers to really know this and react upon that.
Su: Thank you. I am so grateful for the time that you have given us today. Thank you for articulating so clearly the challenges that you and your community face on a day-by-day basis, and we will continue to stand with you and to pray for you. Thank you so much. Go well and God bless you.
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