Embrace’s CEO, Tim Livesey, was privileged to speak with Tim Farron on his weekly podcast, ‘A Mucky Business’. The two Tims discussed the similarities between 9/11 and what is happening in Gaza today, why the conflict in the Middle East is not ‘intractable’, and the pressures facing Christians in the Middle East.

You can listen to the full episode on Premier or download it from your favourite podcast provider.

Tim Farron: Welcome, Tim! A moment ago, you compared the Twin Towers coming down in 2001 with what has happened in the last few weeks in Gaza. Tell us what you mean by that.

Tim Livesey: I’ve just written an article on this for the Church of England Newspaper. Writing about these things at a time like this is very difficult, very challenging. But I found myself comparing these two events. Just after the Twin Towers came down (I was working in the Press Office in Downing Street at the time and we watched in horror as the towers collapsed in seemingly slow motion), I had a phone call from a journalist, who asked me a rather odd question: ‘What does this change, Tim?’ And I answered, involuntarily and, in retrospect, rather melodramatically: ‘It changes everything.’ I knew it would change everything in the world of international relations at least – and in Gaza, the same applies.

For those of us who have been around this subject for a long time, the scale of what is happening is horrific. The precursor – the terrible events of October 7 – were also really shocking. Having said that, we’ve been expecting something for a very long time. This time, perhaps everything changes because people are sitting up and taking notice.

TF: Do you think it’s possible that anything good could come out of all this, in terms of movement towards some kind of permanent settlement?

TL: All I can say is that I very much hope so. But I would caution politicians, including our own government and also the opposition, in indulging in what I would call ‘fantasy rhetoric’ that suddenly everything will change and the thing that has eluded us for so long will suddenly become possible.

I don’t like the term ‘intractable’. This conflict is not intractable – it’s just that there is no political will to bring it to a close and create the solution that you’re talking about. I cannot honestly say that I’m hopeful – which doesn’t mean to say that I don’t hope – but I do know how difficult this is. You’ve got Anthony Blinken on a tour of Middle East countries now. Go back six or seven years, and John Kerry was doing exactly the same thing, and he actually had the last dying embers of a peace process that he was trying to breathe life into. He failed. Anthony Blinken doesn’t even have that. So, being realistic, I think the scars of this current conflict are going to be even more difficult to overcome, to heal and to move on from, than has been the case since, possibly, 1967. You can see the state of Gaza – it’s not going to be easy to move on from that.

TF: You know the Middle East well, and you engage with it in your current role as CEO of Embrace the Middle East. Could you tell us a bit about what Embrace is about?

TL: Well, Embrace is a development charity. It was founded back in 1854 so it has a long pedigree – we celebrate our 170th anniversary next year. We exist essentially to support Christians in the Middle East in their social witness. That’s the way in which Christians respond to exclusion, marginalisation and displacement.

We have about 50 partners in Israel, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine, Iraq and Syria. They work with people living with all kinds of disabilities, with refugees, with people who are too impoverished to have access to education or healthcare, and so on. We have about five partners in Gaza and eight in the West Bank, and a number in East Jerusalem. And I would say that we support those partners in their social witness in order to help sustain their presence in the Middle East. By working with them, we hope we can give them the wherewithal to remain because in different ways and in different places Christians in the Middle East – as we all know – are under huge pressure. And numbers are declining dramatically.

TF: Tell us a little bit about that. In Gaza, how many Christians would you say there are roughly?

TL: Well, before this conflict began there were just short of 1000. How many will remain after this conflict I don’t know, when you consider those who may die or have already died, and those who may decide that enough is enough and leave Gaza. This was a vulnerable community to begin with, with just under 1000 out of a total population of about 2.5 million.

TF: And what is the Christian population in Israel itself?

TL: I think the Christian population in Israel is something like 190,000. In the entire West Bank, including East Jerusalem, it’s less than 50,000. In terms of pure numbers, I think the decline in the Christian population in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem is the most dramatic decline in the whole region.

TF: What is the cause of that?

TL: It is essentially people leaving. Why? Because of the occupation, because it’s not a life worth living. And they have the ability, the wherewithal. Christians tend to be very well-educated – that’s true everywhere in the region – but they also have contacts in the diaspora around the world. I know a number of people – in their 40s and upwards – who have decided that they wish to remain. They do not want to be forced off their land, they do not wish to leave their homes. They’re very courageous but they recognise that their children may make a different choice and, in their heart of hearts, they know they probably should. So you have a generational divide. If you were to ask me whether this decline could be arrested, I would say that that would be very difficult. I should say, though, that there are young Palestinian Christians, just as there are young Iraqi Christians who we work with, who have chosen to return.

TF: Is there any way the Christian community could be seen as a bridge? Are they trusted by both sides? How relevant is the Christian community to any future for the region?

TL: I think it depends from place to place. If we’re talking about the region as a whole, in Egypt there are probably in excess of 12 million Christians. It is by far the most numerous population of Christians in the Arab world, and they’re not going anywhere. They are a very important part of Egyptian society. However, they are also rather marginalised and they do, at times, live in fear. They were certainly living in fear when the Muslim Brotherhood was in control. They had genuine fears for their very existence.

But the answer to your question is yes. Inspired by the gospel, Christians have a very non-violent approach. So they may wish to resist the occupation, for example, in the West Bank – but they will only resist in a peaceful way. They tend to be well-educated as I mentioned, and that’s partly because of the quality of Christians schools (to some extent that is one of the benefits of missionaries who went out to these parts – one of the slightly more positive legacies of our colonial past, and there aren’t many!).

So, Christians go to good schools, they are well-educated and therefore often well-implanted in the professions. They play an important role in society. At the same time, they may experience a glass ceiling – you can’t go any further because you’re a Christian, and they feel squeezed, they feel marginalised, they feel fearful. And they don’t feel, frankly, supported by the West. And indeed, were they supported by the West, that can be a double-edged sword as well. So theirs is a vulnerable situation.

TF: What would you like our listeners to be praying for when it comes to your work?

TL: One of my colleagues talks a lot about the ‘one household of God’. We have this very strong sense that we are part of one family – the Christian family. And if one part of that household is hurting, so should the other part of the household be hurting. Christians in the Middle East are part of that one household – they are an incredibly impressive part of that household, as well as of course being far more closely connected to the birthplace of Jesus than we are. They are precious but they are vulnerable.

So I would want my Christian brothers and sisters in the UK to be aware of them, to try to inform themselves about who they are. You can go to the embraceme.org website – there is plenty there to help you begin that journey. Most fundamentally, pray for two things. The first thing to pray for is peace because every human person in the Middle East – whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish – suffers from this continuous cycle of violence, which we’re currently witnessing in such extreme circumstances. And secondly, that they be sustained. Sustained in terms of their number, their population, their community – and sustained in their faith. Although, for the most part, they have a lot to teach us about what it means to be a faithful Christian, particularly in very difficult times.

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity. To listen in full, go to Premier or download the episode from your favourite podcast provider.